Thanks Smok, for your reply. I find it well balanced and refreshing and some points are worth attention. I hope you don't sense me as an "enemy" for my own views as I enjoy your own. First off, you replied: I disagree VEHEMENTLY with al this Cindy Sheehanesque nonsense you posted. I understand that if she hadn't lost her son in the Irak war, she prolly still would support it, who knows. But she did lose her son, and I can sympathize with a grieving mother. What I don't understand in your reply is the word "vehemently". Care to develop? War AGAINST the innocent people of Afghanistan? Get real!!!!! The Taliban was at war with the innocent people of Afghanistan... What do you call requiring women to cover themselves in Burqas, and if the burqa was not worn properly the woman could be beaten in the street, or hauled off yto the soccer staium to have her brain blown out then and there for the pleasure of the crowd? Whereas now, the US coalition is free to bomb them with DU and kill them at will, along with their children, displacing them in huge tent camps...which is a lot more sensical, isn't it. While the Taliban was in power, the poppy culture was at its lowest level but now that the US has taken over, same culture is flourishing as never before for the benefit of the US and the Afghani people are just as dirt poor as ever before. And the burka is still imposed, once again, more than ever. Here's a link, that is clip from Penn and teller which sums up EXACTLY what I think of these twits who say 9/11 was an inside job. The "twits", as you call them, are the more prominent actual scientists and experts, on one hand. On the other hand, what is your own expertise on this topic??? Have you given a thought to the possibility of 911 having been an inside job, you know, just a thought such as "what if?"... how would you feel leaving your comfort zone for just one second and question if that would be the case??? Have you thought of the implications this carries? I will agree with you that corporations and politicains who rely on them for support of various kinds do act contrary to the long term interests of all concerned (Except the short term interest of their shareholders) but I don't for a second believe that 9/11 was anything else than what it was. A terrorist attack. We've found a common ground, Smok, it was a terrorist attack. A hellish one at that. Those who have carried it have thus made a declaration of war on the american people, not the american government. Who leads the american government by the nose nowadays? In fact, WHO is the American governement??? I have posted what I believe must be done to achive a lasting and just peace. You have also seen what I have to say about oil. We need to break dependency on fossil fuels from both a geopolitical and an environmental standpoint. Although I haven't read yet all the material posted on this site, I agree wholeheartedly with what you just said. But please let stay away from nonsensical large scale conspiracy theories, and address actual situations arising from petty, shortsighted greed. But we do have to find the truth, we have to explore every venue so we won't get caught unawares the next time, if there is one. Seems there will be one tho', with the US trying to convince its citizens - and the rest of the world - to attack Iran, Bush's 29% low-ratings, he will either have to resort to a "selective" military draft, sign himself dictatorial powers and who knows what else. Petty, shortsighted greed or instant karma always has to be repaid one way or another and we know it's not worthed. But ask Halliburton: they've got a lot to account for... in the shortsighted greed department, for instance. And all those Blackwaters & al who profit from torturing innocent civilians half a globe away for the benefit of foreign powers. If we are losing liberty, it is because the people themselves aren't paying attention to what's going on. If people in North America had the awareness and commitment to achieving non-violent change as the Poles did under communist rule instead of shutting off their brains and tuning in to Desperate Housewives, American Idol and Survivor, the movers and shakers would not be able to get away with what they do. Democracy is what you make of it. use it or lose it. Here again, I agree wholeheartedly. For years now, we've been trying to share our findings with common folks who'd rather not hear about it. People who expect the government to take care of every aspect of their lives, from cradle to grave, who hold their government responsible for every little twist of fate they encounter and who cannot, for the life of them, realize that each one of us is responsible for ourselves. I understand that the US is desperate for energy sources, I've been decrying it since 2000... but I never thought they'd choose the path they have taken to reach their goals. The energy crisis was a challenge for every entrepreneur and inquiring mind to dig deeper and question nature and our own resources, find innovative and creative ways to confront the problem, to make new deals, I don't know... something a lot more humane than what is going on now. The whole planet is suffering from decisions and actions taken by people who haven't taken the time to think things through so anxious were they to flex their murdering fibers while we watch, helpless as genocides are committed on a large scale, rape and torture becoming the norm and living in repression as the only way to survival. Do I want that for my children and my grandchildren? Of course not. Do I want to be forced to speak Chinese or Russian in a few years from now? Of course not. So let's all do what we have to do.

Quietnoise.... It seems you and i live in the same city.... That said, I will explain myself to you with regard to some of the emphatic verbiage i used. I VEHEMENTLY object to these wild-eyed conspiracy theories, partly because it is an insult to those killed in the 4 tragedies that day, and the fact that it defies all logic. Are you going to try to tell me there was a mass conspiracy among those killed in this operation, that all of them were paid off by the government to disappear and take on new identities so that the government could go out ans start wars? Do you really think that many people could be part of a conspiracy and keep silent? Puh-leese! Thi is apart from your suggestion that President Bush is as unspeakbly evil as Hitler, stalin or Mao Zedong. While I will concede that corporate interests hold a strong sway among some elected representatives, and sometimes cause them to act to the detriment of the nation, note that it is always in a quest fro short term profit for shareholders (and big, fat bonuses for executives) that is the goal, not some sinister plan for the establishment of a global oligarchy. politics takes money, and those who seek office need backers, and unfortunately the backers expect payback. GWB is far from perfect, but he is not evil, and has striven to do the right thing. He has even alienated the big oil crowd somewhat with his announcement in the most recent state of the union address about moving the country away from fossil fuels, but nevertheless finding and producing as much as possible to keep the economy running until the transition can be made. Conspiracies are very difficult , if not impossible to pull off successfully, as someone, somewhere on the foodchain will eventually talk too much. Forget the popularity ratings. latest numbers show Bush on an upward trend. It doesn't matter since he cannot seek re-election anyway. Nor will he assume dictatorial powers. There are too many checks and balances in the US system, despite ts flaws, for that to happen. The Senate would stop him. I can't see Republicans like McCain, Brownback, Santorum and others endorsing such a plan. The House would turn on him so fast it would make his head spin, and the Supreme court would rule any such move unconstitutional. Moreover, the good folks in the armed forces would not obey such orders. These are people like you and I, who have joined out of their free will. Not one was conscripted, and unlike the Chinese and other armies in totalitarian states, these people are educated and trained, not automatons. Furthermore a coscript armed forces is proven to be inferior, and the technological nature of modern warfare demands a smaller , but better educated fighting force. Good luck establishing a dictatorship in the USA. In any case, I think we can all learn something from the Polish example. I strongly suggest reading some historical accounts of the Polish resistance, first to the Nazis, and then to the communist regime that took over after the war. You will learn about a people, united with their church in a network that advocated peaceful, orderly change that respected the dignity of the human person. They were not fighting the ideology of communist economic theory. They were not pushing for a libertarian capitalist society either. Just respect for basic human rights. I will reccomend a book, if you can get your hands on a copy. It is called "Man of the century" by Jonthan Kwitny. It is an extremely well researched book about the life of Karol Wojtyla, better known as JPII. It's a thick volume, and goes to a great deal of trouble to go into all kinds of minute detail about the forces that shaped the Pope's thinking, and the players and the times in which he lived, and how it all tied into the culmination which most of us are familiar with as "Solidarity". You will be pleased to know that the book is NOT a glowing tribute to a "holy alliance" between President Reagan's administraion and teh Vatican. In fact the writer's research would indicate that no such formal alliance existed, and that indeed , the Pope was just as troubled with unbridled corporate capitalism and its inherent greed as a threat to human dignity as marxism. I would go so far as to suggest that the writer has issues with the USA. In any case he goes into how the Poles persevered in their dream of freedom and sovereignty for decades, but never lost sight of the goal. It also shows how the church can be involved in guiding the process so as to keep it moving along the way Jesus Christ would have it happen. While Reagan's toughness, resolve and arms buildup did help to hasten the collapse of the Soviet Union and communism, there remains some quesion as to whether the fall of communism would have happened as bloodlessly as it did, were it not for the Polish freedom movement. Definitely worth reading, if one is sincerely interested in making the world a better place for all, without signing on to a packaged ideology and its agenda. If I may specifically address the energy issue, I still say the US has not gone to war over oil. I will say, however, that there are interests out there who depend on oil revenues who have the resources to put the khybosh on any development that threatens their profits. How easy it is to buy off an inventor by taking his plans for a couple of million dollars.... Somehwere out there, however is a John Galt. (read ayn rand's "Atlas Shrugged") who will come up with an inexhaustible energy supply, and who is not corruptible by the filthy lucre offered by corporations. However, such an individual, if he/she is out there, would want to make sure that their invention wil not be used toward nefarious ends. This is where we come in If we can export the Polish model for change to all countries, to wit, a peaceful awakening of the people to Christian values (ie: human dignity), under the quiet leadership of the Pope, we can achieve it at the grassroots level, the only way it can be done. IT will require a spiritual re-awakening first. As a final note on this, for along time, in Polish society the church was seen as the ally of the aristocracy. This began to slowly changeafter independence in 1918, and it became a peoples' church. Many people who were indifferent to Catholicism came to the church and learned what it really stood for during this time as it quietly taught about human dignity as Jesus would and it became the rallying point of one of the greatest revolutions in world history. This is what happens when the true message of Christ gets out. It may be of interest to many to note that shortly after communism fell, Poland banned abortions, and guess what? now that tehy are illegal, very, very few people will even attempt to get one. Score one for human dignity.

Thanks for a very interesting exposé, Smok, about Poland and its people's situation. They have survived countless sufferings with dignity and are respected for it, no doubt. You talk about the people having enjoyed a close relationship with their church which helped them base their resistance to political powers on human dignity. Here, not longer than 40 or 50 years ago, it is the State that was hand in hand with the Church, to impose a repressive lifestyle on our people. For instance, married women were "forced" to have babies every year and if they did not, were banned from the community for a whole year, until they had another baby. Married people were not allowed to enjoy their sexuality: it was a duty first and foremost. And on, and on. If human dignity means the suppression of the human element in any individual, I'd say it's a repressive human dignity, don't you think? So when the sexual revolution happened, it was political as well, for we all know that religions are powerful political tools. That is a lesson well learned by fundamentalists of all colours (refer to Islamism and all other -isms for that matter). The ideal solution would be for the people and the church to get closer (without any political nuance) to effect long awaited beneficial changes in the individuals as well as in society, but people are wary... and lost. They need guidance and turn to politicians and other shamans for light. I guess someday, each one of us will have to go back to universal basic values if they want peace in their lives and only then will it spread, like a wild fire. In the meantime, we struggle. As far as conspiracies go, I guess only time will tell. The important thing here is that there's a lesson to be learned by all, and that even if 911 was NOT a conspiracy, an influential group of people benefitted from it, and still is. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there seems to be a flat note of defeatism in your message, in the sense that "no matter who rules the country, we have to submit as long as they respect our dignity, because one way or another, we would be ruled." A message that says, "don't fight the ruler, fight for your rights to be respected." If so, these are words of wisdom but quite hard to live by for they imply a certain submission to greedy powers who see their people as cannon-fodder, tax-payers and upholders of the corporate machine. You may say that no matter who rules us, they're all the same and you'd be right. But I think maybe the World Order can be changed, interests reversed in order to elevate mankind to its destiny instead of crushing it and squeezing it like a lemon for the benefit of a few.

I agree completely with Quietnoise. I believe we should have the goverment impliment a church burning policy so as to prevent any violation of the seperation of church and state. Another idea would be to disarm our military in order to prevent any possible war between Canada and another nation/terrorist group(if theres only one army there can't be a war). If these ideas were to implimented we would be peaceful and the birds and butterflies would fly over the grassy , green meadows where the unicorns play freely. :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P (thats sarcasm btw.)

LOL, that was funny, crusader, but a bit far-fetched. Instead of beginning aggressive interventions in foreign countries, we should have our military guard our Northern Territories which the US is eyeing greedily and we should mind our own business. As for the churches, no need burning them down, many of them are being morphed into condos. Whatever, your reply hasn't addressed my argument, so have fun with your sarcasm!

Ohhh ..........you're serious? :shock: Okay I will try to address your posts then.*cracks knuckles* Lets a see here.... Instead of beginning aggressive interventions in foreign countries, we should have our military guard our Northern Territories which the US is eyeing greedily and we should mind our own business. I agree with that to a degree , we should have a much larger military presense up north , because so far only we recognize our claim to the far north , other nations suchas Denmark and the U.S.of A sure don't. As for minding our own business , we stayed out of Iraq (the second time) we are in Afghanistan because Osama bin Laden killed many of our citizens on September 11th , just a thought here what was your opinion of sending D.A.R.T to Pakistan , sending peacekeepers to Haiti,sending our navy to help the Americans after huricane Katrina , or the possibilty of sending our forces to Sudan?should we mind our own business in these situations?You want to feed the starving people around the world and yet at the same time mind our own business , seems to me you're saying mind our own business in situations that don't involve danger , like saying we want the best for you but if it involves the possibility that blood of a few will be shed for the benefit of an entire nation well then I ain't risking nothing for you , your family , or your nation. Now for the church and state thingy, You talk about the people having enjoyed a close relationship with their church which helped them base their resistance to political powers on human dignity. Here, not longer than 40 or 50 years ago, it is the State that was hand in hand with the Church, to impose a repressive lifestyle on our people. For instance, married women were "forced" to have babies every year and if they did not, were banned from the community for a whole year, until they had another baby. Married people were not allowed to enjoy their sexuality: it was a duty first and foremost. And on, and on. If human dignity means the suppression of the human element in any individual, I'd say it's a repressive human dignity, don't you think? Your arguments are outdated no church I know of forces married women to have babies every year.Human dignity was basically given to the world through Christianity and Judeaism , pagans sacrificed each other to their false gods , if anything Christ taught human dignity like healing the lepers,blind,and others people that no one else would even approach. Does islam,atheism,paganism teach mercy,justice,or any other values that are now basic human rights?My experience of church is what has changed my life around in the last 2 years, it made me an individual not another leftist media produced robot.Its hardly repressive its the most freedom I've been able to enjoy my whole life. As far as conspiracies go, I guess only time will tell. The important thing here is that there's a lesson to be learned by all, and that even if 911 was NOT a conspiracy, an influential group of people benefitted from it, and still is. You're right time well tell, but no worries christians are very forgiving people your apology will most likely be accepted then. You talk about the people who benefit from September 11th , wouldn't you agree if they wanted a war that there are much simpler ways to start one?I mean if their as influential and powerful as you say couldn't they merely start one without the fuss?besides why fight in Afghanistan?whats the point?why not simply start a war against Iraq in the first place? The rest of your post is addressed to Smok. but please post something soon as today is my day off and I have nothing better to do. :P

Good witness, Crusader! While I will concede that the Catholic Church (at least the francophone side) was at one time closely tied to the state, I must say I've never heard any such nonsense as women being forced to have babies.... as part of the "revanche du Berceau" (Revenge of the cradle) thinking that influenced church and state in days gone by, it was considered a matter of patriotism, more than anything. What can you expect from a people who fought hard and well, and were abandoned to their fate by their own government? (traded to the UK for Guadeloupe) There was a sense of lost pride, and it was misdirected. But it was never compulsory. The Catholic church, has never, as far as aI know taught that sex between a married couple is "dirty" or a "duty" and not to be enjoyed. Read the Catechism for yourself. the only restriction on sex is that it must never occur outside of wedlock. In any case, the french catholic Church did pay a heavy price for its clergy's involvement in state, which was as you correctly pointed out, the quiet revolution, where francophones abandoned the Church in droves. This is one reason why Pope John Paul II, early on in his papacy, ORDERED all clergy involved in partisan politics to get right out, and concentrate on preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Yes, even some US Congressmen who were Priests were asked not to run again. Their vows were to come first. You will see a return to the church once Quebecers reach the end of their rope with the hedonistic, perverted empty lifestyle, and search for the truth. Now, Quietnoise, As for your assertion that we should never fight the ruler, only for dignity under their rule, that is not true. There are times when blood must be shed, but only when the issue is forced, and there is a chance of winning. Let's not forget that Poland was under the threat of iminent Soviet/Warsaw Pact invasion, which Czechs and Hungarians can tell you is not pleasant. But why resort to violent revolution when it is possible to win non-violently. A grasp of history will tell you that raely do violent revolutions accomplish anything except installing one new tyrant to replace an old one.... Those who resort first to violence to achieve power will be less hesitant to use it to retain power later on.... Cases in point: Bolsheviks replace the Tsarist autocracy in Russia: Did the people really win? The French revolution is another example of worse replacing the bad.... And who looks back nostalgically at the reign of Cromwell? Then you have teh Sandinistas replacing the Somoza thugs in Nicaragua...Castro replacing Bautista in Cuba. In Spain, a violent civil war resulted in the monarch being replaced by the Fascist Francisco Franco. Ask yourself this one: Are Iranians better off under the Mullahs than the Shah? And is the life of a chinese better under the Maoists than under Chiang Kai-Shek? I could go on, but you hopefully get the point. I hope you take the time to read about the true story of how communism fell. It is something from which the world can learn.